Well, that was painful.
And everybody I’ve talked to agrees, as, apparently, does a vast majority of Americans.
In a CBS “snap” poll that asked “How did the debate make you feel?” the answer of 69 percent of respondents was, “Annoyed.”
As depressing as the debate was and as tempted as I was to turn it off a couple of times, I felt a civic duty to see it through. Everyone who hung in there from beginning to end should give themselves a gold star. And those who bailed? Well, I understand…
The big question today — one that many of us are ruminating on — is: Should Joe Biden refuse to participate in the last two debates?
Frank Bruni
One of the first Op-Ed columns I read this morning was by Frank Bruni, one of The Times’ most insightful and eloquent columnists. He called the debate “a horror show” and “an insult to the country.”
He also made it clear he thought Biden should pull the plug, saying…
But I have a message for him, and I’m serious: Don’t do this again. You showed your willingness. You showed up. But another of these fiascos is beneath you. I’d add that it’s beneath America, if there’s even such a thing anymore.
After reading that, I put the question — Should Biden withdraw from future debates? — to our 32-year-old daughter Brooks and three good friends.
One friend, Ginzy Schaefer, a former KC Star employee and now a neighbor, wrote: “Yes!!!! No more debates because Trump can’t behave. He can’t let anyone else talk.”
One of my longest-standing friends, Bill Russell of Louisville, KY, agreed but didn’t offer an explanation.
Another friend and former Star colleague, Fred Wickman, wrote: “Yes. No more with a bratty child!”
Brooks was the most voluble and, with her being a representative of the generation following the Baby Boomers, I was eager to hear what she had to say.
“It’s awful,” she wrote in a text. “It didn’t produce anything fruitful regarding their policies or presidencies or what they would do for America. It made everyone look bad. Even Biden said a few low blows. But he did mostly hold it together…I don’t think it’s a good use of time at all. It wasn’t about telling the U.S. people what the country would look like. It didn’t even show their political skills or knowledge. (Well, for Trump that’s zero anyway). But it was more like a bully in a playground trying to railroad the other kid out of the way. No one wants to see that, and he shouldn’t have another opportunity to do it.”
…So, in my snap poll, the result was four out of four saying, “Enough is enough.”
And now I’ll cast my vote and make it five of five.
Biden, in my view, has nothing to lose by refusing to get back in the ring for another bloody, 10-round match. He won last night because the other guy inexplicably managed to swing so hard he ended up on the mat.
The only way this could go on, I think, is if the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonprofit corporation established in 1987, made some dramatic changes that guaranteed a significantly more traditional proceeding.
This afternoon, the commission released a statement saying it would do just that. “The CPD will be carefully considering the changes that it will adopt and will announce those measures shortly,” the organization said.
Still, I’m dubious. When a person is determined to be the turd in the punch bowl, it’s damn near impossible to stop the stink.
**
What about you? What do you think? Step up to the firing line…
Jim,
Let me answer your direct question first. NO. Biden can only lose in those formats. Although, the first debate had absolutely no impact any undecideds, in my opinion. It seemed like the only strategy Trump had to win over voters was to pit the Bernie folks against Biden. Does he really think they will vote for him? Maybe he thinks they won’t go to the polls, but that’s crazy too,
Anyway, as most do, I agree that the debate was a shamble. But, did anyone really think it would be any different? I know everyone is hopeful that the incumbent will act presidential, but as Seth Myers would say, “Really?” Did you really think that Trump was going to follow the rules and not talk over Biden? Really? Not a chance! I agree with what Brooks said, Biden did mostly hold it together, and had his moments, but all I can say is he was better than Trump.
My frustration (and I am wondering if this is the underlying frustration of others) is that the debate highlighted that neither party is sending out candidates that we would be proud to call our president. Biden is a nice guy and has served his state well, but as you point out in your earlier post, Biden is not the democrats best representative. https://jimmycsays.com/2019/04/26/joe-biden-cannot-be-the-democratic-standard-bearer-in-2020/
(Unlike Lindsay Graham, I know that you stand by your words!)
No, my frustrations and sadness is with the whole presidential nomination process that gets us to this point. How many times in the last couple of decades have we had 2 strong candidates? Maybe Obama-McCain? But even then, the VP candidate who can see Russia from her house became part of that fiasco.
Why is this? You probably have some better reasons than I, but I believe it is because:
1) the parties who strategically get behind the established candidates and/or want to shift the parties to either extreme
2) the extreme scrutiny the candidates families get
3) the media tends to highlight the top contenders only early on
4) the average voter is lazy and doesn’t dig enough to the candidates. I shouldn’t say average voter, i should say average poll taker. The process is so influenced by the results of polling and the herd mentality (or is it herd immunity – insert smiley face here) that follows.
I know this is dreaming, but wouldn’t it have been great to see a debate (as well as a contest) between Mario Cuomo and John Kasich? Instead we got what we got because of the system we have.
My biggest problem, Jim, and the reason I could never make it in politics is I too often shoot from the hip and hurtle to ill-advised extremes.
You were generous not to point out the final sentence of that post you linked to — the post in which I railed against him for his treatment of Anita Hill during the Clarence Thomas hearings decades ago.
I concluded that post with this: “So, Joe can go around kissing babies, smelling women’s hair and doing whatever he wants, but he won’t be getting my vote…ever.”
Ever? What an idiot…That was a huge overreaction, and I’m trying to learn from my mistakes.
Clearly, I will be voting for Biden. There is no other reasonable choice.
Thanks for the comment.
Sorry, Jim. My intent in sharing your previous post was not to indict you for that last statement, and also not to point out that Mr. Biden is not fit for the job, which he clearly is, but to point out he is not who I would consider the BEST for the job and once again we have a choice between 2 subpar candidates in my opinion.
Keep doing what you are doing!!
I voted for Trump hoping he would serve my long-desire to have a businessman in the reigns. Someone outside the normal politician-mode. Well I got both of those, but forgot so many other traits!!!! Last night was the final nail in the Trump coffin for me. I see no reason for Biden to attend/participate in the next two debates. I predict a low turnout LANDSLIDE victory (in the 65-75%) for Biden. I believe Trump lost 50% of his “loyal” voters last evening.
I’m glad to hear you say that, John. It gives me hope that many other people who voted for Trump with good intentions have also come to see the folly of following him down the black hole where he is trying to take the country.
One of my first big shocks before the 2016 election came when Patty and I were on a train trip to Chicago, and we were seated in the dining car with a Hispanic couple who lived outside Chicago. I believe the man was a subcontractor of some kind. I asked him who he was going to vote for, and, to my shock, he said Trump. Why, I asked…”Well, he’s a businessman,” the man said. I pointed out that Trump had a history of stiffing contractors and subcontractors like him. He just shrugged. His wife didn’t say anything but I presume she was following his lead.
It was at that point I realized Trump’s now-exposed facade as a successful businessman might be fooling a lot of people.
Trump is not a businessman, let alone successful at it. He just played one on TV reading lines that reality show producers told him to. And, after reading Mary Trump’s book, we now know he never knew what he was doing. He squandered gazillions from Daddy Trump and drove whatever he had into multiple bankruptcies. Reality TV saved him and got us into this nightmare.
All he has been successful at is a long con, and even that is about to bite him in the ass.
The perfect encapsulation, Liselotte…”and got us into this nightmare.”
Last night’s debate was a horror show. I didn’t expect much from Trump, but last night was a new low, even for him. I don’t think Biden stands to gain anything by attending another debate but Trump will call him out and say he can’t take the heat. My 22 year old is voting in his first election and he took the time to sit down and watch. We had to explain to him afterwards that what he saw was not normal. Isn’t that sad? The country deserves so much more than this.
Thanks, Lynne. Good to hear from you again. It is very troubling to think about how young people felt after watching that. That’s why my daughter was so upset. (She wrote much more than I quoted.)
If Biden backed out, sure, Trump would be calling him “Chicken Joe” or something similar. But I don’t think that would win him any votes. The nation and the world saw — in real, very slow time — just what a boor Trump is and how dangerous he is as leader of the country. Very few who watched last night would call Joe a coward for refusing to go back into the pit. He might actually have more to lose doing that because some would question his judgment.
Tut-tut, Jim. Misspelling a name is a big no-no.
I think the next two debates should proceed as planned, but with one modification in format. Each candidate’s testicles should be wired with cattle prods and anyone who interrupts the other gets zapped. I will run the remote control zapper. Publicize this format in advance and I guarantee the largest debate audience ever.
Well, there you have it folks — the seminal (so to speak) answer to how to stop the incessant babbling and over-talking.
Thank you, Mick, for this epiphany…I will be sending your idea along to the Commission.
Personally, I’m shocked that Joe showed up for the first one and it was predictable that no matter what happened he would look for excuses to head back to his basement for the rest of the campaign. Even before the debate Democrats were looking for excuses to bow out.
In a sense, I guess you could say Joe won given that he made few real gaffes and didn’t crap his pants like Jerry Nadler did the other day during a press conference.
https://heavy.com/news/watch-jerry-nadler-poop-his-pants-video/
The real question though is why the party picked a gaffe prone septuagenarian slipping into senility for their presidential campaign when they had so many attractive and articulate younger candidates at hand.
My initial reaction was for no more debates. But looking as various viewpoints today and proposed changes by the Debate Commission, I think Biden should do at least the next one. The next debate is a Town Hall with questions asked by the audience. These type events play to Biden’s strengths. Trump already did a Town Hall recently and showed he could not cope with something outside the Fox News bubble.
I do think last night’s debate hurt Trump badly in a week of cascading bad news – virus levels increasing, tax issues, massive layoffs hitting as last aid package expires, etc. He already has a historic gap with women for a presidential election (no woman I know likes a bully) and coming layoffs will continue to pinch the white non-college males away from him. I also think a good majority of voters are just exhausted by Trump and the current uncertain environment works strongly against him.
Also avoiding to disavow white supremacy is a loser except for his hard core base (though most of the Republican party is just as bad in not outright condemning it today – they know that is a good part of their base now). And why would he put down people who have a degree from a state university/college? I realize those people aren’t breaking towards voting for him, but that is probably at least 70-80% of people with college degrees in this country.
As Maggie Haberman of the NY Times wrote this morning, Trump knows he is losing. But Trump thinks he won the debate and the circle of butt kissers around him will not tell him any different. Even Limbaugh admitted Trump lost the debate. There are new polls today show that he is losing in South Carolina of all places! The former Ohio GOP chair (the Ohio governor’s brother) said in a interview that Biden will win Ohio. GOP Strategist Mike Madrid on the Lincoln Project post debate show last night said he would not be surprised that Trump loses 4-6 percentage points over the next 2 weeks. Trump is bleeding states he needs in the electoral college just to be competitive.
I do think next week’s vice-presidential debate will be brutal for Mike Pence. Kamala Harris being a former prosecutor is going to nail Pence to the wall on all of the things that Trump has done and force Pence to defend them. It will not be pretty.
I hope with all my heart that young people come out and vote in force. They have the ability with their growing numbers to change things. They need to realize that they can truly makes changes in the years ahead to make things better.
Great points, Bill…I believe you’re right about the town-hall style debate. If Trump does what he did last night, somebody in the audience — it’ll be much more intimate — might just jump up and tell him to shut up. Wouldn’t that be a riot?
Two political strategists I’ve seen (not Democrats) suggested one of the following for the next debate:
1. Have Trump wear a shock collar that the moderator controls.
2. Give the moderator a Taser to keep a certain someone under control.
Reading the letters in The Star this morning, I think the overwhelming consensus was that the debate was a debacle and no one is looking for more.
According to Bob Costa in today’s Washington Post, Republican Senate candidates are now apparently in a panic about their own debates coming up. They know they will be asked about the Proud Boys and white supremacy. The Republican answer is looking to be deflect and move to other topics.
The proper and moral thing would be to strongly condemn it, but that is what the Republicans have now reduced their base to.
Maybe they should try health care. Senator Mike Lee of Utah said on one of the Sunday shows that covering per-existing conditions is unconstitutional. And I see Senator John Cornyn of Texas has an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal today stating that Democrats overstate the importance of covering per-existing conditions.
Republicans have ripped their mask off and they are what people have accused them of being for years.
Please, no more debates. The first and I hope only one simply reinforced where this country is at these days in terms of its overall polarization and the continuing failure of both major parties to demonstrate any real leadership at a time when it is sorely needed, and I don’t think any of us need to be reminded about our fast-sinking Ship of State (SOS) a second time and then a third time. I think I’d rather have a root canal than be subjected to any more debates between two old white men who are both past their prime and are anything but inspiring. What America witnessed Tuesday night was simply God-awful!!!
Jim, several commented on the two parties nominating substandard candidates. I would offer that this is a result of the electoral college and in part President Trump inspiring the nomination of Joe Biden. Basically the two parties are trying to appeal to a handful of rust belt states plus Florida — basically a narrow slice of Americans.
The economic engines are on the coasts, plus Texas and in cities. We are not an agrarian, manufacturing country any longer.
The LA Times ran an article a few days ago pointing out there are more Republican voters in California than perhaps 20 other states combined. My point, if a Republican could pick up 4 or 5 million California Republican voters and still lose the state, he/she might win the presidency. We don’t see presidential candidates out here. (As an aside, no Democratic presidential candidate has campaigned in Missouri since 2008) My point, to win nationally, might mean different candidates who have to run in all 50 states.
Trump inspiring the Democrats to nominate Biden is Joe’s experience and presumed ability to repair the damage. He is well known and has contacts internationally that will prove crucial. He knows the bureaucracy.
If there is a Biden presidency, he should host a meeting of NATO at the Truman Library in recognition of Harry’s part in its creation and send the message that the US is back.
Finally, so called debates add nothing to the information available elsewhere.
Jim, Your blog has touched off a large number of comments and replies! Good for you. I was disgusted as well. Biden looked older and weak. Trump was in his fighting mode. The Commission is considering giving the moderator a switch to cut-off a microphone. I agree, but I believe both mics should be turned off until order is restored (if it is possible). Trump was obviously bullying Biden and trying to overwhelm him–mainly about irrelevant matters concerning the topic or question. If Joe pulls out, it gives Trump fodder that Joe is afraid or a coward. The American people will make up their own decisions and I do not believe any of the debates from Ford-Carter and since have really helped the electorate. They should be scrapped altogether. The only effective debate was the Nixon-Kennedy debates (and the debate that Ronald Reagan said he would not exploit Walter Mondale’s young age, which may have won him re-election).
(P.S. I was glad to hear you are in contact with Fred Wickman, my old boss at the Star (Northland Bureau) and Ginzy Schaefer. I remember her from my reporting days).
Thanks, Bill…I thought a lot of people would want to express themselves, and I’m gratified by the volume of comments.
Reagan was quite effective against Carter, too, when he skewered him politely with those famous four words — “There you go again.” If Trump was smart — which we know he’s not — he would go back and watch that debate and see how to lampoon an opponent with a few choice words, instead of a waterfall of gibberish.
This other famous Regan debate quote was made in his debate with Mondale in Kansas City (saw it in person): “Not at all, Mr. Trehwitt, and I want you to know that also I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit, for political purposes, my opponent’s youth, and inexperience. If I still have time, I might add, Mr. Trehwitt, I might add that it was Seneca, or it was Cicero, I don’t know which, that said, ‘If it was not for the elders correcting the mistakes of the young, there would be no state.’”
Chris Wallace had several opportunities to stop the debate and walk out. He should have used one of them.
Presumably, neither candidate addressed the other as “Worthy Opponent” at the beginning.
I don’t think walking out was an option for Wallace, Les…Might have been for Biden, but that would have been risky. I think he did about the best he could, although I wish he hadn’t called Trump a clown.
Or told him to “shut up, man.” Makes neither one of them sound presidential.
I like Trevor Noah’s suggestion of a squirt gun for the moderator, like training a dog, with a blast in the kisser any time Trump interrupts. Given how concerned he is over his hairdo, I bet that’d shut him up! Then again, he’s a rabid dog …
Good visual image there, Rick…(Trevor is a damn genius.)
Compared to some of your days as a substitute teacher, I’ll bet this debate looked like a Christian book club meeting…
Naturally, Ned, you’re right. One day that stands out in my memory was when I was still doing my student teaching (not yet licensed) and I had to substitute for a full-fledged teacher at Grandview’s Center for Alternative Instructional Resources. What “alternative” means, in school district terms — as you know — is these are the worst of the worst, those who get “re-directed” from the main-line schools.
The “kids,” knowing I had no leverage with them, relieved me of leadership about 30 minutes into a 90-minute session. The next hour was about the longest of my life. Total chaos.
When I am rattled by memories of my few nightmarish days as a sub, I soothe myself by watching Jordan Peele’s “Substitute Teacher #2” video. No matter how many times Jordan as “Mr. Nostrand,” it doubles me over with laughter.
Here it is…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18t5V3gvfa4